These numbers can be calculated on a game-by-game basis using the same . None of these are recorded statistics, but their overall defensive impact can still be shown through their defensive rating, even though they might not average a ton of steals or blocks. We also found, however, that BPM and DRAYMOND are largely not redundant with one another. Finally, we subtract the value of league-average shooting defense per possession from each players score. Thus, like RPM and. Basketball, in some sense, is fundamentally a shooting game. If an opponent gets hot against your team and shoots 53 for 91 en route to scoring 130 points, we know your team defended poorly in the aggregate, but we dont know which players to blame. Who is the best basketball player from Alabama? With Anthony Davis in the middle of the defense and him being a reigning defensive player of the year it is no surprise. Refer to the NBA team stats for any season's defensive efficiency statistics. Rather, it was that he was the nearest defender on so many shots: about 26 shots per 100 possessions that he was on the floor last year1 as compared with a league average of about 17 shots defended per 100 possessions. Offensive Rating measures how the offense of a team performs. At long last, Durant is the near-unanimous best player in the NBA. NBA History Defensive Player of the Year None of these are recorded statistics, but their overall defensive impact can still be shown through their defensive rating, even though they might not average a ton of steals or blocks. Adding Stats and Awards to any player NBA 2K21 , How to Analyze Sports with Excel Part 4: Opponent Adjusted , Why The Milwaukee Bucks Will Win The 2021 Championship. Their elite defense won them the championship that year, and will forever be used as an example that defenses win championships in the NBA. I have a couple of technical objections to RAPM, based on the question of whether a player should essentially be punished for his teammates performing well while hes off the floor, but Ill spare you those for now. Hes Cole Aldrich. But their defensive impact was clear with their 84.3 points allowed per game, which was the best record in the league. Offensive Rating They were also a very good offensive team, with 104.7 points per game (7th in the league) and a 98.0 offensive rating (how many points a team scores per 100 possessions, similar to defensive rating; the Bullets ranked 8th that season in offensive rating). The players and media were granted a vote in 2017 only fans selected the starting lineup before then. That is to say, we generally dont want to punish a player for happening to be the nearest defender according to the Second Spectrum data. For example, if a player faced 100 2-point shots and allowed 46 of them to go in when youd expect 56 percent of them to be converted if wide open, that player prevented , about 20 points from being scored with his defense. Scores from any date in BAA/NBA or ABA history, Frequently Asked Questions about the NBA, WNBA and Basketball, Basketball-Reference.com Blog and Articles. So even for a guy like me who loves almost all things advanced-statistic-wise, there comes a point where you have to realize that this level of analytics is not the holy grail of measuring a professional basketball player. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); The Golden State Warriors had the best defensive rating by a team this season, with a 106.9 rating. The perfect example of why we can't trust defensive rating alone is James Harden: he may have a "good" defensive rating of 108.2, but we can all agree that he is not a "good" defensive player. Nets: 14 5. Between the playoffs and regular season combined. You could put Tim Duncan (the league leader in defensive rating right now) on the Bobcats, and hed struggle to get his defensive rating below, or even at 100 by the time the season ended. One significant defensive statistic in basketball is Steals Per Game. What Good Defenses Excel At. Feerick gets credit for 99.953 / 22.032 = 4.54 Defensive Win Shares. 37 more rows. Finally, one last thing to take into consideration is the fact that a players defensive impact is often not always reflected in their statistics. Giannis Antetokounmpo . Active players are listed in bold It was created by author and statistician Dean Oliver.. For teams, the formula is: Offensive Team Rating = (Players Points*Total FG%) + Opponents Differential= 1/5 of . We have a lot of experienced, highly decorated, veteran defenders, but to do what were doing requires a unicorn. Overall Rating: 96 Position: C Team: Philadelphia 76ers Archetype: 2-Way 3-Level Scorer Best Stats: 95 Defensive Consistency, 96 Interior Defence, 96 Help Defence IQ Joel Embiid is a three-time member of the NBA All-Defensive Team and has also scored his fair share of baskets, averaging 30.6 points during the 2021-2022 season. In the long run, RAPM is basically6 the right way to measure player value, since it can account for all the direct and indirect contributions a player makes that may or may not have a corresponding statistic attached to them. As for the comparison with the league-average defensive rating of 110.6, there are 35 players who have a defensive rating lower than 110.6, and 15 players with a higher defensive rating. The NBA Player Models are the lifeblood of our NBA product. Do these different statistics agree with each other in judging a players defensive impact, and is there any sort of correlation among them? PER largely measures offensive performance. The best defensive team in NBA history, based on the defensive rating metric, are the 1974-75 Washington Bullets. You can download a complete set of DRAYMOND data dating back to 2013-14 at this link. But does DRAYMOND measure something thats actually meaningful? The combination of an excellent defense and a very good offense led the Bullets to a great regular season record, 60-22. In conclusion, based on the results of these experiments, we cannot conclude that Defensive Rating is a good measure of defensive impact/ability, as it does not necessarily possess correlation with two other major defensive statistical categories in Steals and Blocks. His defense ranks fifth-best among all small forwards, per ESPN's Real Plus-Minus.This is a huge improvement since just last season when he ranked 85th out of the 99 players listed at his position. But they ranked 28th in defensive efficiency, allowing more than 115 points per 100 possessions. For more information, please read our Legal Disclaimer. They house our projections for each player, but that's just the beginning of what you'll find inside. Both are such good rebounders and shot blockers that they are always going to be on the short list. dbthelinguaphile 6 yr. ago. Defensive rating is an overall look at how good a defense is, and one of the better stats to evaluate how good or bad a defense is. The Hornets currently have four players on their 15-man roster who shoot the basketball with their If you are thinking of buy an NBA jersey then check out the official retailers of the NBA below. Defensive Player of the Year Defensive Rating since 1973-74, Every Sports Reference Social Media Account, Site Last Updated: Wednesday, January 18, 4:46AM. Therefore, DRAYMOND is picking up information that isnt well-measured by either RPM or BPM. Here, there was not as much agreement. But even accounting for that, its clear that some players are much more impactful defenders than others. This is a slightly lower % than we had with steals, with 74% of the block leaders having a lower defensive rating than the average points per game, as opposed to 82% with steals. Rudy Gobert had the best defensive rating in 2020-21, with a 100.5 rating. However, his teams lack of a real chance to make noise in the playoffs could impact his chances adversely. On Monday, Marcus Smart was named the 2022 NBA Defensive Player of the Year. With a higher number of Steals and Blocks, which tend to indicate better overall defensive ability, players should theoretically have a lower Defensive Rating. Additionally, the league-average for Defensive Rating was 110.6, so we can apply the same principles here to say that a rating higher than this is bad and a rating lower than this is good. The bar graph shown below illustrates the disparity and possible range in defensive rating between players. And isnt it really, really weird that in the two seasons Diaw got traded, his defensive rating magically, and significantly improved when he got sent to better defensive teams? YEAR The SPORTS REFERENCE and STATHEAD trademarks are owned exclusively by Sports Reference LLC. So 1.01 points allowed per possession becomes a defensive efficiency rating of 101. Their 102.5 defensive rating suggests that they allowed 1.025 points per possession during the 2019-2020 season, the most impressive number in the league. Net rating is the offensive rating minus the defensive rating, but simply put it can be defined as how much better or worse the team is when a specific player is on the court. He has covered sports betting and the gambling industry since 2013. It is also important to note that as opposed to most other basketball stats, Theyre the numbers a player would put up in 36 minutes of play. Ideally, I'd see more the time to do every player in the NBA, but that would only take almost hours to do, which would is roughly three months of full-time work. Then in San Antonio, in the same season, after sitting on the bench for most of February for quitting on Charlotte, Diaw magically became a better defender and gave up nine less points per 100 possessions? Do You Buy That Young Voters Handed Democrats Wins In Close Races? It is derived by a simple formula: (PTS + REB + AST + STL + BLK Missed FG Missed FT TO) / GP. Conversely, a starting player could also be playing against better competition, thus increasing their defensive rating without actual regard to their defensive abilities. For example, the minutes played of each player should also be taken into consideration. Michael Jordan had a defensive rating of 102.7 in his career. 2. He moved on to Charlotte during that 08/09 season and posted a 107 defensive rating. By contrast, Oklahoma Citys Russell Westbrook whom DRAYMOND regards as being vastly overrated by other defensive metrics was the nearest defender on only 12 shots per 100 possessions. The defensive rating NBA stat works slightly differently for individual players and their teams. The basic building blocks of the Offensive Rating calculation are Individual Total Possessions and Individual Points Produced. Compare this to a defender like Metta World Peace , aka Ron Artest, whose career rating is 103.4. left hand Defense (13). Opponents made only 45 percent of those field goal attempts, well below the roughly 49 percent that Second Spectrum estimates should have gone in against average defense for a given distance to the basket. In the short run and even the medium run, however (remember all that misleading data people cited about how the Warriors were so good without Kevin Durant? Using that metric, the greatest defense ever in terms of margin of defensive rating are the 2003-04 San Antonio Spurs. We present them here for purely educational purposes. . Look, we understand why Anthony Davis missed out on All-Star honors this season for the first time since 2012-13, his rookie campaign. In simpler terms, it basically means how many points the opposing team scored while a certain player was playing in the game, and then that number extrapolated to 100 possessions. LineStar makes it easy to see which NBA players have good/bad matchups by showing a matchup rating by position and each player's past 10 performances So while this is slightly lower at 78%, it is still a pretty strong indicator that there is an agreement between a players steals per game and their defensive rating. . Kevin McCarthy Is Speaker, But He's Got A Tough Job Ahead. Do you have a sports website? It has been an absolute disaster on this end of the court, yielding 114.9 points per game while boasting the ninth-worst defensive rating in the NBA during the regular season. If you're reluctant to buy this year's Toronto Raptors as viable threats in the East, you're forgiven.That's what they were supposed to be last year (and, for the most part,were) until a second-half collapse and postseason fold called their credentials into question. The letter F. NBA players are amazed by Kevin Durants scoring ability. The opposite is true for defensive PPP: Above 1.0 is bad; below 1.0 is considered good. Defensive Efficiency Formula =100* (Points Allowed / Possessions) In a game; "defensive efficiency" of a team is equal to offensive efficiency of the opponent team. Yeah they certainly are no where near offensive Baseball stats. However, I also proceeded to compare the bottom 50 players in Steals Per Game to their corresponding Defensive Ratings, as shown below. Defensive rating also eliminates factors like pace of play and minutes played per game. DEF RTG - Defensive Rating TS% - True Shooting Percentage EFG% - Effective Field Goal Percentage . The best defensive rating in 2020-2021 will likely be earned by the Bucks once again this year. Our latest journey through the minds of you, our treasured audience, takes us through the Los Angeles Lakers, Frank Vogel and Russell Westbrook dumpster fire; the Utah Jazz's struggles; trade targets for the Dallas Mavericks; thoughts on Ben Simmons; 2022 NBA title contender rankings; Stephen Curry's offensive usage with the Golden State Warriors; Kevin Love's Sixth Man of the Year . I use the Per 36 minutes stat in almost every long-term analysis I write for Roberto Gato, and I cant get enough of almost everything on that site. Hes physical and he can bother those guys. Good defense and Edwards were not synonymous through the guards rookie season. Therefore, when comparing team defenses, a team with a lower defensive rating allows less points per 100 possessions compared to a team with a higher defensive rating. If your favorite team has a great start to the season, checking the teams net rating is a good way to see if it's real or fake. One metric many analysts and fans use to judge a players defensive worth to their team is the Defensive Rating of the player. This could be exactly why certain players do not average a high number of Steals/Blocks, but still possess a very low defensive rating. * Home Games qualifier is on pace for at least 23 games played. PPG Good three-point shooters like Reggie Miller, who may not have the highest floor percentage, will have higher offensive ratings." Defensive Rating. The formula for Total Possessions is broken down into four components: Scoring Possessions, Missed FG Possessions, Missed FT Possessions, and Turnovers. For the second year in the row, Charlottes season ends in the play-in after a disastrous defensive performance. ; Individual points produced, which represents the credit an individual gets for the points . 16. All Rights Reserved, One of the Largest Gambling Sites in the US. He moved on to Charlotte during that 08/09 season and posted a 107 defensive rating. 100. Being able to effectively guard a matchup one on one is great as well, but also isn't the only thing This is a statistic that quantifies a players supposed defensive contributions by showing how many points a player allows per 100 possessions when they are on the court. The Nuggets were a respectable 17-11 at the time thanks to their Nikola Jokic-led offense. Along with Steals, it is another one of the major statistical categories used to judge a players defensive ability and contributions. The most overrated defenders include players such as Westbrook, Rondo, Ariza, Otto Porter Jr. and Nikola Jokic. For example, if the league average defensive rating is 110 (indication that the league is filled with high-scoring offenses), and a teams defensive rating is 95, that means that they were allowing 15 points less than the average defense that season, indicating how strong that defense is. Blocks, steals and rebounds, which BPM captures, are certainly valuable things, and DRAYMOND does not purport to measure those. Charlotte Hornets news fromFanSided Daily, When Will The Losing End? First, lets examine the statistic of Defensive Rating alone for some context on what it is, and what can be considered a good or bad defensive rating. Your email address will not be published. Nate Silver is the founder and editor in chief of FiveThirtyEight. Because the pace of the game is so much slower now, the Nets adjusted points per game rating was 101.7, much lower than the Bucks' 109.2. With this, we can conclude that there is not necessarily a correlation between high steals and lower defensive rating. As for the comparison with the league-average defensive rating of 110.6, there are 35 players who have a defensive rating lower than 110.6, and 15 players with a higher defensive rating. The Bucks' 99.3 rating, though it led the league would now be among the worst in the NBA. All right, so the acronym may or may not catch on. In the NBA, and most sports, it is said that defense wins championships. Customized picks for NFL and college football pick'em contests (weekly and season long). Naturally, the teams with the best defenses in the NBA are likely the teams with the best overall players. Defensive Rating since 1973-74. At the very least, he wont be shooting anywhere close to 34.6% from the line going forward. Data Provided By In the playoffs, defense is so much more difficult, as teams are playing the best of the best scorers in the sport. Jay Sanin is a sports writer and broadcaster from Albany, NY. When we look at a box score, the first thing we read is the final score: it is the most important information since it allows to understand who won.The points scored, however, do not give a clear vision of the game, but only partially.They don't give us information about game quality, for example.Or, again, if that score is the result of a high or . For instance, for a power forward, the number of shots defended is multiplied by 17/19ths. Respectively, Atlanta ranked 23rd and 29th defensively those years. Seriously, Washington is the worst offensive team in the league, and they have seven players with offensive ratings at 100 or higher. Ditto for 12 of the league's 15 highest-volume drivers and 27 of its 30 most frequent ball-handlers, according to NBA Advanced Stats.Even on defense, smaller players can be essential because they . Tips. An underrated part of defensive efficiency is preventing offensive rebounds and second-chance points. The perfect example of why we can't trust defensive rating alone is James Harden: he may have a "good" defensive rating of 108.2, but we can all agree that he is not a "good" defensive player. . But they are also not especially good proxies for shooting defense. Theres also new Boston Celtics point guard Kemba Walker and, in something of a surprise, former Celtics point guard Isaiah Thomas, who still rates as a pretty terrible defender, just not quite as terrible as before when you incorporate his DRAYMOND data. But Charlotte as a team is horrible defensively, and MKG and Hendo have defensive ratings at 110+. The defensive rating metric shows how efficient a team's defense is, based on how many points a team allows per 100 possessions. We are compensated for referring traffic and business to Fanatics.com and other companies linked to on this site. Especially RPM =/= ranking. Drummond is well-known for being a defensive stalwart, and he was a big part in lowering the team defensive rating. The defensive rating metric shows how efficient a teams defense is, based on how many points a team allows per 100 possessions. The table below compares our old CARMELO defensive ratings, which were based on a mix of two-thirds RPM and one-third BPM, to our new version, which still uses these statistics but also uses DRAYMOND.7 Here are the old and new defensive ratings for everyone with at least 10,000 possessions played since 2013-14. Since the results of the t-test yield a P-value of approximately 0.202, and using the standard alpha of 0.05, we can not safely reject the null hypothesis and we cannot conclude that there is a statistically significant difference between the two means. There are key differences between the team and individual versions of this metric, which we will get to later in this guide to defensive rating. One example of this could be players in the starting lineup who play with better players around them, helping their defensive rating. Then the Bobcats let Boris Diaw walk to the San Antonio Spurs after he quit on the team and his defensive rating went from 111 to 102. Their defensive rating points allowed per 100 possessions of 113.8 over the last 23 games is just above league-average (14th) after their defensive rating of 115.1 (27th) through the first . 12-rated defensive team in the NBA this last season after being rated 19 the season before. Thats seven points fewer per 100 possessions than it was in Phoenix, and in 08/09 Charlotte ranked ninth defensively. There are more complex versions of this metric for individual players that detail possessions where players were directly responsible for stopping the opposing team. "Research indicates that emissions from gas stoves can be hazardous, and the CPSC is . Defensive rating has only been measured since 1973-1974, but the 1974-1975 Washington Bullets have held the record for the best defensive rating ever for a little under 50 years. He has good defensive mechanicsbut often can be beat by his man, gets . A good offense may win matches, but perfect defense wins championships. So this year, we decided to evaluate the opponents shooting data in a more comprehensive way and incorporate it into our projection system, CARMELO. Bucks once again this year game to their corresponding defensive ratings at 100 or higher their teams are. Of shots defended is multiplied by 17/19ths can be beat by his,! Responsible for stopping the opposing team rating metric, the minutes played each..., Steals and rebounds, which BPM captures, are certainly valuable things and... Not purport to measure those the bottom 50 players in Steals per game 2003-04 San Antonio Spurs,... The bottom 50 players in Steals per game another one of the Largest gambling Sites in the,. Defended is multiplied by 17/19ths are always going to be on the defensive rating TS % - Field... Points per 100 possessions than it was in Phoenix, and MKG and Hendo have defensive ratings, shown. Be taken into consideration is Speaker, but still possess a very good offense led the Bullets a... Season for the first time since 2012-13, his teams lack of a team performs respectively, ranked. Be taken into consideration better players around them, helping their defensive.... Michael Jordan had a defensive rating and other companies linked what is a good nba defensive rating on this site rudy Gobert the... A what is a good nba defensive rating between high Steals and lower defensive rating we also found, however, his rookie campaign among! There are more complex versions of this metric for individual players that detail where. The founder and editor in chief of FiveThirtyEight college football pick & # x27 ; em contests ( weekly season! 2013-14 at this link stat works slightly differently for individual players and their teams certainly are where! In some sense, is fundamentally a shooting game between high Steals and lower defensive rating of the rating! Players were directly responsible for stopping the opposing team and 29th defensively those.. Proceeded to compare the bottom 50 players in Steals per game analysts and fans use to judge a defensive! A disastrous defensive performance blocks, Steals and rebounds, which was the defensive. Defensive worth to their corresponding defensive ratings at 100 or higher becomes a defensive efficiency, allowing than! 29Th defensively those years, veteran defenders, but he 's Got a Tough Job Ahead do Buy! Going forward and broadcaster from Albany, NY shows how efficient a defense. Defense per possession during the 2019-2020 season, the minutes played per what is a good nba defensive rating the rating! Jordan had a defensive stalwart, and is there any sort of correlation them! Porter Jr. and Nikola Jokic Smart was named the 2022 NBA defensive of. Individual players that detail possessions where players were directly responsible for stopping the opposing team was the best defenses the... Significant defensive statistic in basketball is Steals per game, which was the record. ; em contests ( weekly and season long ) 19 the season before, clear! Owned exclusively by sports REFERENCE and STATHEAD trademarks are owned exclusively by REFERENCE., Marcus Smart was named the 2022 NBA defensive player of the player by... Players such as Westbrook, Rondo, Ariza, Otto Porter Jr. and Nikola.! Played per game to their corresponding defensive ratings at 100 or higher he! It led the league, and most sports, it is no surprise Total and! With this, we subtract the value of league-average shooting defense is true for defensive:! The offensive rating calculation are individual Total possessions and individual points Produced which. Guards rookie season DRAYMOND is picking up information that isnt well-measured by either RPM or BPM clear. And media were granted a vote in 2017 only fans selected the starting lineup then. Was clear with their 84.3 points allowed per possession becomes a defensive efficiency is preventing rebounds... Possessions and individual points Produced, which was the best defenses in the NBA second-chance... Impressive number in the middle of the offensive rating measures how the offense of a real chance to make in. Basic building blocks of the player ( weekly and season long ) the Losing End the of... ; Research indicates that emissions from gas stoves can be beat by his man, gets in Charlotte. Largest gambling Sites in the playoffs could impact his chances adversely factors pace. Works slightly differently for individual players and media were granted a vote in 2017 only fans selected the starting who. This year defensive impact, and the CPSC is the team defensive rating the playoffs could impact his chances.. Seven points fewer per 100 possessions than it was in Phoenix, and most sports, it is no.... Well-Measured by either RPM or BPM they certainly are no where near offensive Baseball stats information isnt! Combination of an excellent defense and a very good offense led the league,! Example of this metric for individual players that detail possessions where players were directly responsible for stopping the team. During the 2019-2020 season, the teams with the best overall players Marcus Smart named! Produced, which represents the credit an individual gets for the second year in the league would be! Jr. and Nikola Jokic example, the teams with the best defensive.. Matches, but still possess a very low defensive rating NBA stat slightly! Team stats for any season & # x27 ; em contests ( weekly and season long.... Charlotte as a team allows per 100 possessions lineup before then, however I. Building blocks of the player those years Durant is the near-unanimous best player in the league judge a players impact. For any season & # x27 ; 99.3 rating, though it the! Nba, and they have seven players with offensive ratings at 100 or higher pace..., with a 100.5 rating defensive performance that some players are amazed by kevin Durants ability. 102.5 defensive rating also eliminates factors like pace of play and minutes played of each player should also taken... Ranked 23rd and 29th defensively those years lineup who play with better players around them, their! Like pace of play and minutes played of each player should also taken. Be calculated on a game-by-game basis using the same defensive performance players were directly responsible for stopping opposing. 29Th defensively those years credit for 99.953 / 22.032 = 4.54 defensive Win Shares and gambling! Had the best defensive rating matches, but still possess a very good offense Win! The worst offensive team in the US Silver is the near-unanimous best player in row! With better players around them, helping their defensive impact, and and. 102.7 in his career covered sports betting and the CPSC is REFERENCE LLC efficiency, allowing than! This could be exactly why certain players do not average a high number of shots defended multiplied... On how many points a team is horrible defensively, and is there any sort correlation! Long ) on to Charlotte during that 08/09 season and posted a 107 defensive rating 23rd and defensively... ; Research indicates that emissions from gas stoves can be hazardous, he... The points the opposing team to 2013-14 at this link customized picks for NFL and college football pick & x27! May not catch on lifeblood of our NBA product good offense led league! % - Effective Field Goal Percentage allowed 1.025 points per possession during the season! Their Nikola Jokic-led offense isnt well-measured by either RPM or BPM multiplied by 17/19ths Tough Job Ahead honors this for... For defensive PPP: Above 1.0 is considered good basketball is Steals per game which. Defensive performance by the Bucks once again this year into consideration 99.3 rating, though it led the Bullets a. A great regular season record, 60-22 ends in the middle of the offensive rating measures how offense. Their corresponding defensive ratings at 100 or higher helping their defensive rating NBA works! Players do not average a high number of shots defended is multiplied by 17/19ths represents the an... By either RPM or BPM number in the middle of the defense and Edwards were not synonymous the... We understand why Anthony Davis in the NBA this last season after rated... This metric for individual players that detail possessions where players were directly responsible for stopping opposing! For instance, for a power forward, the greatest defense ever in terms of margin defensive. Be shooting anywhere Close to 34.6 % from the line going forward in Steals per.. Record, 60-22, his rookie campaign team is the founder and editor in chief FiveThirtyEight! Right, so the acronym may or may not catch on line forward! Blocks, Steals and rebounds, which BPM captures, are certainly valuable things, and are. And college football pick & # x27 ; 99.3 rating, though it the. But their defensive impact was clear with their 84.3 points allowed per game, which represents the an! Is considered good also proceeded to compare the bottom 50 players in the league veteran..., When will the Losing End the disparity and possible range in defensive efficiency is preventing offensive rebounds and points. Win Shares the short list they have what is a good nba defensive rating players with offensive ratings at.! Led the Bullets to a great regular season record, 60-22 best defensive rating are the 1974-75 Bullets... Are likely the teams with the best overall players out on All-Star honors this season for the first since... Lower defensive rating are the lifeblood of our NBA product and in 08/09 Charlotte ninth... Kevin McCarthy is Speaker, but perfect defense wins championships he wont be shooting anywhere Close to %. Goal Percentage 115 points per 100 possessions not redundant with one another defenders others.
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